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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  5:25:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pretty much everything I read abou hypnosis says that you canĀ“t be forced to do things against your will or against your moral codes, but there are a lot of stories of women being raped while under hypnosis.What should I believe? Sorry if this has been discussed before, If so could you direct me to those posts?

gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  5:55:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also, if there is really no way to hypnotize someone who does not want to.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  6:21:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
People in a hypnosis session are just as vulnerable as in a counseling/psychiatrist/psychologist session. There are individuals in every profession whom should not be. Hypnosis and client mistreatment makes a good news story. It rarely happens.

There is no way to formally hypnotize someone that does not want to be.

There are in-formal hypnosis/persuasion techniques that can pry into a person's psyche and can increase the chances that they will do what is desired, even if the person does not initially want to do that thing. It's called 'advertising'. You can see it at work every day on the TV or radio. Especially during election years... bleh

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  6:51:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So there isn't a kind of technique used to "pre hypnotize" someone into a deeper state of hypnosis?I know that there are subtle techniques of hypnosis and I guess advertising and persuasion are two but can they be used to put you in a deeper state?Even with advertisement there are levels of hypnosis, there is a reason why they can't use subliminal messages.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  6:52:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There is no research or evidence that subliminal messages work.

Not sure what you mean by "deeper state". People respond differently.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:06:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yet subliminal messages aren't legal.By deeper state I guess I mean that ah... If there was a billboard telling you to act like a chicken you probaly wouldn't start acting like a chicken in the middle of the street, but with a hypnotist people do. I guesse I'm sayng taht there are degrees of suggestability,don't you agree?
quote:
Originally posted by patrickg

There is no research or evidence that subliminal messages work.

Not sure what you mean by "deeper state". People respond differently.

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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:07:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If some sort of hypnosis was as all-powerful as sensationalized news stories and movies made it out to be, don't you think politicians and advertisers would be using it? There is no secret mind control method.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:12:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
there are degrees but not in the way I believe you mean. The classic stage hypnotist getting someone to do anything, such as act like a chicken... consists of more than the typical audience member would notice.

Someone very averse to acting like a chicken would resist and reject the suggestion. But the hypnotist knows that and filters out the people likely to resist during the volunteer selection and testing.

People attending a X-rated hypnotist show are more likely to be OK with removing clothes. Additionally, only people ok with being in front of people would volunteer to go up. Know what I mean?

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:34:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well politicians do use other forms of mind control. I d'ont know that much about hypnosis but I read somewhere that people are different and that different techniques are required for different people, so a type of mass hypnotist wouldn't really work in a all powerfull way. On another hand Hitler might disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by patrickg

If some sort of hypnosis was as all-powerful as sensationalized news stories and movies made it out to be, don't you think politicians and advertisers would be using it? There is no secret mind control method.

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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:41:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Obama did very well with NLP techniques. Hitler had the benefit of a fearful population - much easier to lead via hypnotic techniques. High emotion generates more suggestibility. Just look at the history (long ago as well as recent) of religion. Same thing with the military.

To create a situation that makes someone more accepting of your words/suggestion/thought/opinions you want three things - Authority figure, Emotion, Repetition. You will see that formula in advertising, religion, politics, car sales, and your local hypnotist.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:46:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Understood, but there is no way of tricking someone who is hypnotized to do what they don't wan to?If some how the hypnotist makes mistake and chooses someone who doesnt want to play a chicken. He says now your chicken, nothing happens because the person is resisting, but if,for example, you're in a farm, there's chickens all around you, there's an egg beside you, you must be a chicken.Can he use tricks, go around the situation? I don't know if I making myself clear enough.
quote:
Originally posted by patrickg

there are degrees but not in the way I believe you mean. The classic stage hypnotist getting someone to do anything, such as act like a chicken... consists of more than the typical audience member would notice.

Someone very averse to acting like a chicken would resist and reject the suggestion. But the hypnotist knows that and filters out the people likely to resist during the volunteer selection and testing.

People attending a X-rated hypnotist show are more likely to be OK with removing clothes. Additionally, only people ok with being in front of people would volunteer to go up. Know what I mean?

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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:50:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm sorry I meant to say that if the hypnotist told you that you're in a farm...
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  8:14:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
it depends on the person's currently held beliefs/behaviors. Example, if they have a strong fear of chickens and farms, they would likely resist. If they did not like or trust the hypnotist, they would likely resist. If they trusted the hypnotist, like chickens and farms, or whatever the hypnotist is suggesting, they will likely follow-along with the suggestions just fine. Think of it as a constant balancing game with suggestions on one side a currently held beliefs on the other.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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HypnoDoc

USA
365 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  10:21:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit HypnoDoc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Where are the stories of the women being raped you refer to? Please point us to one example anywhere in a reputable news source that is reporting this. This is a made up scenario by people who are attempting to sell bogus hypnosis seduction programs or wanting to discredit hypnosis itself.

As with all consultant type settings (doctor, dentist, shrink, etc.) there are a few people who may abuse the situation but that is far from an everyday occurrence.

HypnoDoc

"Relax, Listen and ______ with Hypnosis" Audio Series.
(MP3 Instant Download, CD, and Cassettes)
250 Scripts for Hypnosis Professionals
(All the scripts you may ever need for your practice)
quote:
"Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  11:01:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78887684.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=4672122&page=1

Hypnosis angle makes a good headline, but to you and I there are obviously other factors and professions involved. The hypnosis itself likely had very little to no influence.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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Steven Peliari

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  11:01:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Steven Peliari's Homepage  Reply with Quote
An interesting discussion.

Subliminal advertising was used heavily in the 60's by Coca Cola and other companies to plant subconscious suggestions within people.

To give you an example now, imagine biting into a juicy lemon and as you feel the juiciness of that lemon extend a soury taste throughout the tip of your tongue, where you're normally used to tasting sweet things, you will notice an incredibly juicy sourness that makes your mouth salivate.

Now extend that same technique to a coca cola commercial, or a commercial advertising any product for that matter, and you can make someone desire the product. That's the form of subliminal advertising that was banned, and it was quite real.

In terms of hypnotising people against their will, this is of course not possible, however we can trick a person's subconscious into wanting to do something that they normally wouldn't, and that's where the field of covert hypnosis comes in, which is far too detailed to discuss within this post alone.

Edited by - Steven Peliari on 12/26/2008 11:02:40 PM
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Ron Surface

29 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2008 :  01:19:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ron Surface's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Steven,

Welcome to the forum.

With all due respect, imagining biting into a lemon is not a subliminal suggestion. It's simply focusing your thoughts and using your imagination.

A subliminal suggestion is a suggestion which is 'hidden' within another message, so the conscious mind is not aware of it.

If it's something you are consciously doing (using your imagination) or something you are consciously aware of, then it's not a 'subliminal' suggestion.

As to gavie's question if it's possible to hypnotize someone to do something they don't want to? I agree with Patrick, it's possible to influence people, but what most people consider hypnosis has very little to do with it.

I used to work as a bank teller. One of the things they taught us is if a person is very talkative during a transaction, slow down and pay attention to what you're doing. Con men usually try to distract or confuse you. If this happens today, it's often said the crook used 'covert hypnosis'.

Much of what is being taught as covert hypnosis, is nothing more than unerstanding human nature, using various psychological techniques, subliminal suggestion and various persuasion techniques from sales and marketing repackaged as 'covert hypnosis'. These techniques may be effective, but they have very little to do with what the average person considers hypnosis.

Ron

Ron Surface
www.mindmasters.net
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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2008 :  8:32:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is there a way to realize your being covert hypnotized?Can you avoid it?
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Ron Surface

29 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2008 :  01:56:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ron Surface's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi gavies,

Here's a few things to keep in mind.

First, understand there's a difference between influence and control. Many people or groups are trying to influence us all the time and the techniques they use are drawn from several different fields - sales, marketing, psychology, NLP, etc. This should really be considered persuasion and influence, but it seems nowadays any method of persuasion is being reclassified as hypnosis or covert hypnosis.

My advice would be to 'be present' or pay attention to what's going on. Most of the time our mind is everywhere except in the present. Con men often try to distract or confuse you. Don't let them. It's your mind and no, they can't take control of it.

It also helps to be a student of human nature. What makes people tick? Why are they engaging in this behavior? Even if this is something you're not into, you still know what is considered 'normal' behavior. Look for behavior that is out of the ordinary. If a stranger is unusually talkative, ask yourself why? Maybe he's just lonely and wants someone to talk to. The point is, everyone wants something. Sometimes their motives are clear and sometimes their motives are not what they seem. If you think their behavior is a little odd, slow down and pay attention to what's going on. Don't get caught up in their story. If they seem a little too friendly, ask yourself why? Maybe that's just their nature. Maybe they're up to something.

I'm not saying be cynical or paranoid, just be aware.

"Is not he a sage who neither anticipates deceit nor suspects bad faith in others, yet is prompt to detect them when they appear?"
( I love those ancient Chinese sayings.)

Take care,

Ron

Ron Surface
www.mindmasters.net
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Ron Surface

29 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2008 :  02:41:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ron Surface's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here's a couple more quotes from Confucius -

"Do not use your eyes, your ears, your power of speech or your faculty of movement without obeying the inner law of self-control."

Chi Wen Tzu used to reflect thrice before acting. When told of this, the Master said: 'Twice would do'.

Imagine that. It was once taught that we're responsible for our own actions, and that we could control our actions by 'thinking twice' before we acted. It would be nice if more hypnotists (and psychiatrists) studied Confucius today.

We're all responsible for our own actions. Think twice before taking them. Exercise self-control. Most of these stories of people being controlled with hypnosis and handing over money, etc., simply boils down to people allowing themselves to be hurried, rushed or confused and not stopping to think twice about what they're doing.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Ron Surface
www.mindmasters.net
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gavies

16 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2008 :  12:55:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you, Ron.
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HypnoDoc

USA
365 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2008 :  2:27:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit HypnoDoc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Of course some people can be quit convincing... the Bernard Madoff situation comes to mind. I am sure someone somewhere has said that he used Hypnosis.

HypnoDoc

"Relax, Listen and ______ with Hypnosis" Audio Series.
(MP3 Instant Download, CD, and Cassettes)
250 Scripts for Hypnosis Professionals
(All the scripts you may ever need for your practice)
quote:
"Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2008 :  3:40:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well said, Ron.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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bramly

17 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2009 :  08:10:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HypnoDoc

Where are the stories of the women being raped you refer to? Please point us to one example anywhere in a reputable news source that is reporting this. This is a made up scenario by people who are attempting to sell bogus hypnosis seduction programs or wanting to discredit hypnosis itself.

As with all consultant type settings (doctor, dentist, shrink, etc.) there are a few people who may abuse the situation but that is far from an everyday occurrence.


read a book entitled open to suggestion by Robert Temple. quote-page 15 thousands of people throughout the western world come up to one another knowing nothing whatever about the subject of hypnosis expect that some say it can help you stop smoking and they assert with the fervour of witnesses in a courtroom that you cannot be made to do anything against your moral principles under the influence of hypnosis you know. if either the person saying this or the person hearing it knew the first thing about the subject of hypnosis one would be less puzzled but generally speaking they don't. where does this 'truism' come from? it comes from the subliminal fear of those who say it. unfortunately it is not true. this 'truth' will be exploded in chapters 6,7 and 8 to an extent which will show the reader how numbingly misleading popular truisms can be. this false belief which has permeated through society has actually created danger especially in chapter 7 on rape under hypnosis. I will stress how women are put unnecessarily at risk of rape under hypnosis because they believe this bit of nonsense and are thus convinced that rape cannot happen it is if we had told women you cannot be mugged on a street corner you know. then believing this falsehood the women might hang around dark street corners out of ignorance, not knowing that they were putting themselves at risk. this is just what is like when we say to women you cannot be raped under hypnosis for there are so many cases of rape under hypnosis-and there have been for decades-that to conceal the truth makes one party to criminality.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2009 :  10:09:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
LOL

You should spend your time with better books.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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bramly

17 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2009 :  02:23:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by patrickg

LOL

You should spend your time with better books.

I would like to ask you 2 questions, 1, have you read the book yourself? 2, have you ever been hypnotized to a somnambulistic level yourself? I don't think any one is qualified to comment on somnambulism until they have experienced it themselves. I have been made to do things under hypnosis which I definately would not have freely done, I don't wish to say what it was but if you knew I'm sure would agree. some one can be tricked into doing something against their moral code under hypnosis. for example a hypnotist could make a female believe that he is her husband under hypnosis to perform a sex act. another quote from the book about the author-open to suggestion is the first popular book this century to convey the full range and potential of hypnosis for good and for ill.it sweeps away the popular myths about the subject and presents the facts, many for the very first time. best-selling author Robert Temple, whose 10 years of investigation have taken him all over the world to come to know the foremost researchers in the field has collected together the evidence and countless case histories never before made available in book form.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2009 :  09:54:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have no interest in spending the time reading a book that has no value, other than a marketing ploy.

I've been hypnotized to below a somnambulistic level and done over 2,000 individual hypnosis session w/ most reaching somnambulism.

People can be tricked into things - hypnotized or not. Hypnosis can change the type of trickery to imagination.j

I was going to make a point by saying something about being able to prove any side of an argument by selectively (not objectively) browsing history. Accepting some stories and rejecting others so the conclusion fits what I choose it to. That I could write a book proving there are UFO's and aliens visiting earth by doing 'historical research' - but it looks like Robert Temple already did this in his book "The Sirius Mystery".

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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bramly

17 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2009 :  11:30:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by patrickg

I have no interest in spending the time reading a book that has no value, other than a marketing ploy.

I've been hypnotized to below a somnambulistic level and done over 2,000 individual hypnosis session w/ most reaching somnambulism.

People can be tricked into things - hypnotized or not. Hypnosis can change the type of trickery to imagination.j

I was going to make a point by saying something about being able to prove any side of an argument by selectively (not objectively) browsing history. Accepting some stories and rejecting others so the conclusion fits what I choose it to. That I could write a book proving there are UFO's and aliens visiting earth by doing 'historical research' - but it looks like Robert Temple already did this in his book "The Sirius Mystery".

the difference between being not hypnotized and hypnotized is loss of the critical faculty as you obviously know. I don't care if his other book is star trek, until you read this book you don't know what's in it.
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bramly

17 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2009 :  03:49:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gavies

Also, if there is really no way to hypnotize someone who does not want to.

by talking to someone whilst asleep using the appropiate script normal sleep can be turned into hypnotic sleep and trance. so without the persons consent or knowledge as post-hypnotic amnesia can be achieved. this has happened to me. also there is a website where L Ron Hubbard, who was a master hypnotist, explains how he does it.
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patrickg

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2009 :  09:44:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit patrickg's Homepage  Reply with Quote

"you can hear me but you don't wake up"

bramly, please go test out the things you read and believe. Then come back to discuss.

Patrick Glancy, CI, BCH
www.salemhypnosissolutions.com
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bramly

17 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2009 :  3:45:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will repeat what I said in the previous post, I have been hypnotised whilst asleep, now I am not lying. if you go to www.lermanet.com when the home page comes up click on search, type never believe a hypnotist, next page click on never believe a hypnotist, on that page L Ron Hubbard explains how he does it. another quote from open to suggestion, page 45- it is a common assumption of nearly everyone that when one is unconscious that one is 'out', that is, sealed off from the environment, unaware of ones surroundings and in a state of suspended animation.but we will see that this is not true when in the next chapter I give a description of how a patient was successfully hypnotized. this proves that patients in a coma can sometimes, and perhaps always, hear what is going on around them, or at least what is spoken their ears. and yet a coma is meant to be the most inactive of unconscious states, where the patient is hopelessly out of touch with his surroundings.

Edited by - bramly on 06/07/2009 05:26:27 AM
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