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firespiral

1 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2004 :  12:16:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am seeking information on Australian creditation. Does a hypnotherapist with UK accreditation have recognised worldwide accreditation? With so many courses/training programs (and fake ones!) out there, how do I know what is real? If someone could break this down and explain the main organisations relevant to me, I would be muchly appreciated! Thankyou

DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2005 :  5:40:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've become very concerned, lately, about the use of words like "accredited" and/or "accreditation" when applied to hypnosis, hypnotherapy and/or NLP training... at least regarding training programs in the United States. I realize you're asking about UK and Australia, but the issue of accreditation, generally, is one that I believe should be clarified in these forums. Belowe, I'd like to explain accreditation in the U.S., as a means of helping the reader to understand that accreditation, generally, is something that only a government -- either directly in some non-U.S. countries, or indirectly, through agencies, as in the U.S. -- can typically offer. Private accrediting agencies, guids, associations, boards, etc., aren't really "accreditors" unless they have the imprimatur of the government. There are many who claim to be "accreditors;" and many to claim to be "accredited," but if they don't come to their accreditation by way of some kind of governmentally-approved process, then it's probably a misnomer to call it "accredited" or "accreditation."

Now, don't get me wrong: There are many fine groups, boards, etc. that provide all manner of certification and approvals that are probably quite credible. I do not mean to suggest that the only kind of certification or approval worth anything is governmental certification or approval. What I'm saying is that using the word "accredited" or "accreditation" when talking about such approvals or certifications is misleading.

Accreditation of a training program tends to be country-specific. That said, there are many countries that recognize one another's accreditations. With regard to accepting UK credentials in the US, for example, as long as the UK degree (or other college or university credential) is from an institution on the following list:

click here

or is acquired after taking courses from one of the following institutions:

click here

and then getting a degree from one of the institutions with which they're affiliated which can issue degrees, then most in the U.S. consider said degrees to be generally on-par with U.S. regionally- and/or nationally-accredited degrees. And when there is doubt, there are agencies in the U.S. which routinely evaluate foreign degrees and other credentials and render opinions as to their equivalency with U.S. accredited degrees:Most US colleges/universities, governmental agencies, and private employers accept the opinions of forein credential equivalency in official AACRAO and/or NACES credential evaluations.

Conversely, if a US degree holder wishes to have his degree recognized as "accredited" in the UK, as long as said US degree is accredited by an agency approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA), then most in the UK will consider it "accredited."

It would be very similar in Australia regarding that country's acceptance of a UK degree or credential as "accredited." Australia has governmental degree regulation authorities as shown at:and they would, generally, treat a UK degree approved by its government as accredited, and vice versa.

Here's an overview of U.S. accreditation issues with regard to hypnosis, hypnotherapy and/or NLP...



ABOUT ACCREDITATION
(And I mean real accreditation!)

While there will always be debate over precisely what "accreditation" means among those who own/run educational "institions" that don't quite make the accreditation grade (or those who have attended such "institutions"), it is, nevertheless, a fact that, in the United States, among educators, an "accredited" institution is one that has been thoroughly investigated and then certified as having met certain minimum standards of quality and performance by an accrediting agency approved by the United States Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). Period.

SEE:
click here
There is no accredited degree in hypnosis or hypnotherapy (or NLP) -- not one -- in the United States. None. (And if I'm wrong about that, then I'm perfectly willing to be proven so right here in this threat... but before you chime-in and try to do so, please finish reading this post so you don't end-up looking foolish.)

There is no such thing, for example, as an accredited "Bachelor of Arts (or Science) in Hypnosis" or "...Hypnotherapy;" there is no masters degree in either of those; and there are no doctorates (PhD or DCH, etc.) in hypnosis or hypnotherapy... or NLP, either.

There are, however, schooling entities which purport to grant such degrees -- and, what the heck, some of them may even be credible. The American Pacific University (APU) (www.ampac.edu), for example, claims to award such degrees -- right up to the PhD level. I have no idea if APU is credible. Technically, it is state licensed... but, then again, so are many diploma/degree mills (which is part of the reason it can all be so confusing). APU may even offer (and I'm not saying it does or doesn't... I'm just saying that it may offer) rigorous coursework that's on-par with that of an accredited degree. Those who hold APU degrees may be quite proud of them... and, for all I know, justifiably so. But no matter what: APU is not "accredited" by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agency. And that's just a fact.

But, believe it or not, by the definition of "accreditation" as I have set forth herein, there is at least one accredited (yes... fully accredited) hypnosis/hypnotherapy school/program in the United States. We can all sit around and argue about whether or not its distance learning delivery method could possibly be effective since it does not contain any sort of in-person practicum under the watchful eye of an instructor (though the school does offer that if the student can find a way to show-up at its physical location for one of its hands-on sessions); but that doesn't change the fact that it's fully accredited by not one, but two accreditation agencies that are approved, as accreditors, by the United States Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA)...

John Kappas's Hypnosis Motivation Institute (HMI) (www.hypnosis.edu) is fully accredited by both the Distance Education Training Council (DETC), and the Accrediting Council for Continuing Education and Training (ACCET). Both of those are national accreditors (as opposed to the regional type accreditors that approve most colleges and universities in the U.S.). Like the USDE- and CHEA-approved regional accreditors, the national accreditors DETC and ACCET are USDE- and/or CHEA-approved, too. That makes HMI -- like it or not -- "accredited" by any proper definition of that word.

But, though HMI's program is "accredited," it's not a "degree" program. Rather, it's only a "diploma" program. A "diploma" is more like, and in the same family with, a "certificate" that a college or university may offer. Sometimes a college or university will label their certificates and/or diplomas as "undergraduate" or "post-baccalaureate" or "graduate," but they're still not "degrees." They're good, solid credentials, mind you -- ones that may or may not be impressive to an employer or even another college or university -- but a diploma or certificate is not a degree (i.e., not an associates, bachelors, masters or doctorate degree). HMI, though it is accredited, does not offer "degrees" in hypnosis, hypnotherapy or NLP. No one offers (accredited) degrees in those subjects. No one! This is very important to remember!

There may very well be some hypnosis courses offered by fully accredited colleges and/or universities somewhere in the United States. If one dug deeply enough, one might even find a certificate or diploma in hypnosis or hypnotherapy or NLP offered by one or more of them (though I'm pretty sure there are none). And, if so, then such certificates and/or diplomas would, just like HMI's diploma, be "accredited," by the definition of it that I've put forth herein. However, so far, I've been unable to find any such certificates or diplomas offered by any such fully accredited -- especially regionally accredited -- colleges or universities... and, of course, no degree programs in hypnosis, hypnotherapy or NLP anywhere. So far -- and, again, I'm willing to be proven wrong if, in fact, I am -- I've only found HMI's diploma program to be fully accredited, as defined herein, and that's it.

So that means, for example, if you meet someone with an associates (AA or AS or even AAS), or a bachelors (BA or BS), or a masters (MA or MS) or a doctorate (PhD or DCH) in hypnosis and/or hypnotherapy and/or NLP, they may very well have completed relatively rigorous coursework in the subject matter that would, in terms of the hours s/he spent doing it, be quite impressive and equivalent to the sort of coursework that s/he would have done at an accredited college or university. Moreover, if the institution issuing said "degree" is licensed by its state to do so (and if said state isn't one of the states, like Wyoming, for example, that is known to be tolerant of diploma/degree mills and is, therefore, a haven for them), then it may even be appropriate -- at least as far as the state is concerned -- to call the "degree" holder "Doctor" (if s/he has a PhD or DCH), or to allow him/her to put "MA" or "MS" (or whatever his/her degree is) behind his/her name on a resume, business card or letterhead.
    But -- and this is important -- none
    of that amounts to "accreditation!"
The "caveat emptor" and other similar warnings found every now and then in these forums are very good ones... especially in the area of hypnosis training, where con artists abound. If you want credible training, some of the recommendations here and elsewhere in these forums may well be useful and appropriate. By all means, heed them!

And, that said, there may very well be hypnosis, hypnotherapy and/or NLP training mentioned in these forums that are -- their lack of accreditation notwithstanding -- quite good and credible. I'm not saying that a program's lack of accreditation automatically makes it bad. Some of the training that I've seen mentioned in these forums actually appears to be quite good, all things considered. So I'm not suggesting that if if the program isn't accredited, it's not good.

However, if you truly want "accredited" training that has the imprimatur of an accrediting agency approved by the USDE and/or CHEA, then the only program I'm aware of which meets that criteria is HMI's (www.hypnosis.edu)... like it or not. If anyone reading this knows of others, then I most certainly invite them to chime-in and correct me. But, if you do that, please make sure that whatever program -- and/or the institution which grants it -- that you chime-in and recommend is listed in the CHEA web site's (www.chea.org) database at:or in the US Department of Education's database at:otherwise, it's simply not "accredited." Don't get me wrong: It may be an inherently good program, despite it's lack of accreditation; but if it's not in one or both of those databases, it's not accredited. Period.

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way associated with HMI (or APU, either). I have never taught there, nor have I been an employee or student there, nor am I an agent of HMI or APU in any manner. I have no connection, whatsoever, with HMI or APU. Period. In fact, to be candid, I'm not even sure I like HMI's hypnosis/hypnotherapy program (though I'm not saying I don't like it, either); and I'm almost certain that I don't like APU's. All I'm saying is that only HMI's program, like it or not, is truly "accredited" in the truest and most proper sense of that word.



Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.
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Brian David Phillips

Taiwan
5 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2005 :  12:51:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Brian David Phillips's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the clarification on the accrediting issues as well as the class action lawsuit.

All the best,
Brian

Brian David Phillips, PhD, CH [phillips@nccu.edu.tw]
Executive Director, International Applied Trance Society
Certified Hypnotherapist
Associate Professor, NCCU, Taipei, Taiwan
http://www.briandavidphillips.com
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2005 :  7:35:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I am grateful to Gregg for fully clarifying the concept of "accredited" schools, degrees and diplomas. His comprehensive posting is in depth, and well-researched.

However, in identifing HMI ( Hypnosis Motivation Institute, Tarzana, Calif.) as an "accredited" school, offering "Hypnotherapy as a Career" training, some important information is missing.

"Hypnotherapy as a Career" training program (two nights weekly for one year) is not accredited by any organization. The School's Distance Learning program (home study) is accredited, continuing education is accredited ( after career training has been completed) and nothing more.

Before I respond to this, I want to make it clear: I've no connection, whatsoever, with HMI -- or any other school of any kind, for that matter. I'm neither an owner, promoter, agent, student, former student, professor, etc., of HMI. I have nothing to gain from saying either good or bad things about it. And nothing bad about it that anyone can say here will upset me... heck, I might even agree with it. My point was, simply, that we must be very careful about tossing around the word "accredited;" and, further, that by the meaning of the word "accredited" as employed by the world's academic institutions which subscribe to generally accepted principles of academic accreditation, it is probably misleading to suggest that any entity which is not approved to accredit by the US Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accredited (CHEA) can "accredit" a program of study. The only hypnosis/hypnotherapy program of study that is "accredited," by that definition, is HMI's program. I'm not saying that that makes it a superior program. I'm just saying that it's the only one that's truly "accredited" in what I consider to be the proper sense of that word. And, though I have not done the necessary research to either confirm or refute your careful diffentiation of the twice-weekly night course and whether its accredited, versus all the distance learning and continuing education stuff that HMI does and its accreditation, I suspect you're probably correct.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I believe that Mr. Gregg DesElms is unaware of the following significant facts: DETC ONLY ACCREDITS DISTANCE LEARNING (home study courses)
No, actually I was completely aware of that fact. I am very familiar with DETC and what it does and does not accredit. That's why I'm conceding, above, that you're probably right about HMI's residential, in-person, coursework not being included in DETC's accreditation. That said, I reserve the right to change that opinion if and when I ever take the time to research it and should happen to learn that it's wrong. But, for now, I'll agree with you on this point. You're probably right.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners (hypnotistsexaminers.org) approves 45 schools in the USA and abroad and requires 300 hours from a state-licensed Hypnotherapy School for certification. At least 200 of those must be in a classroom setting with a state approved hypnotherapy instructor. Not more than 100 hrs. may be directed home study. (distance learning) We believe that distance learning programs alone rarely (if ever) produce a qualified clinical hypnotherapist.
No argument here as to whether a distance learning program could ever possibly produce a qualified hypnotherapist. It seems unlikely to me, in fact, that that could happen... HMI's DETC-accredited status notwithstanding. We're of one mind on this, I suspect. Again, my point had not so much anything to do with the inherent, objective quality of the HMI program as much as it had to do with the use of the word "accredited" and how misleading using that word can be when it's not referring to a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accrediting agency.

As for your point about The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners approving however many schools it approves, don't get me wrong: I'm impressed. I'm especially impressed with your use of the word "approved" or "approves" rather than the word "accredited" or "accredits." I think it's fantastic that this profession wants to establish some standards to ensure professionalism and patient safety; and that The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners may well be one of the entities that does so, and does so well. My point was, and remains, that neither The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners, nor any other entity which is not USDE- and/or CHEA-approved should probably use the words "accredit" or any conjugations thereof. But I like the word "approve" and all of its conjugations... especially when used by an entity like The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners -- or any other entity of its type or purpose -- and what it does to, with or for educational programs.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
ACCET ONLY ACCREDITS CONTINUING EDUCATION PROGRAMS.
Nope, I knew that, too. My only point was that, like DETC, ACCET is USDE- and/or CHEA-approved and is, therefore, a legitimate "accreditor," as I'm using the term. I'm making no statement, along the way, about the inherent quality of the continuing educational coursework or anything like that. A private organization, such as The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners may very well have superior standards for its approved coursework. I don't know. I'm merely, again, making the point that ACCET is a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditor and, therefore, the HMI continuing educational coursework is "accredited" as I (and the world of academia which subscribes to generally accepted accreditation standards) use that word.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Continuing education is required by many state licensing boards and agencies in the private sector for renewal of license or certification. HMI has never received accreditation for it's Career Training program Hypnotherapy as a Career
Again, I concede that that's probably correct... but I haven't researched it to know for sure. What you say makes sense, however.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
CLASS ACTION SUIT AGAINST HMI
Actually, I had heard something about that suit. I confess to never caring enough about it either then or now to have done any research on or reading about it whatsoever. Nor am I saying here that either the plaintiffs or the defendants were right or wrong because, as I statted, I know nothing about it (other than what I've read that you've posted here). I will say this, however -- and I'm not defending anyone, mind you, I'm just making these categorical points, purely as something that the reader can consider along with everything else: The suit was, clearly, about business practices, and not the quality of the training. Moreover, it certainly appears that HMI and Kappas, et al, have complied with the terms of the settlement agreement, thereby eliminating any potential harm to future consumers on account of said business practices. Further, DETC and ACCET -- as well as any USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditor -- routinely reviews its accredited institutions (such as HMI), and said review includes ensuring that all business practices are ethical and all finances are on the up-and-up. Whatever the problems were -- and I'm not saying they weren't problems worthy of grave concern at the time -- they're clearly not problems anymore; and neither DETC nor ACCET chose to revoke HMI's accreditation because of them... nor, from what I understand, is it likely that either of them will in the future.

Insitutions of higher learning get sued all the time. It is, sadly, a litigious society in which we live. An old lawyer saying is, "Anyone with a hundred bucks and a hard-on for somebody can file a lawsuit." And that's true. Many times, because one party has so much more money to throw at the suit than the other, suits get settled without justice actually being served. That the defendant settled may not mean that the defendant was necessarily in the wrong; and vice versa.

That said, it really does appear, from what you wrote, that HMI was screwing-up; that it was right for the students to knock it down a peg or two from what it was doing; and that now that there's been a settlement and some time has been allowed to pass so that we can see that HMI's now walking the straight-and-narrow and taking the high road and whatever other maxim you want to apply to its current behavior, all's well with the world.

Gil, when I arrived here as a poster (after lurking for a long time) and started this talk about accreditation, etc., I didn't mean for an instant to make it sound like anything you're doing isn't legitimate and credible and of high quality, etc. Actually, I haven't researched it enough to say one way or the other, but my point wasn't so much to denigrate anything you're doing -- or even that anyone else is doing -- in the area of hypnosis or hypnotherapy training or education or certification, etc. Of course, I may have some opinions on those things, and who knows whether you will like them when and if I ever proffer them. All I was saying was (and is), that we -- all of us -- need to be really careful about using the word "accredit" (and all of its conjugations) when talking about hypnosis and/or hypnotherapy training.

There is no such thing as an accredited (as I use the term) hypnosis or hypnotherapy degree -- at least not in the U.S. Period. There are no associates, bachelors, masters or doctorates. And that's just a fact. There may be some MA or MS in psychology, social work or family therapy degrees out there that included some hypnotherapy coursework. There may be a doctorate in psychology or some kind of therapy that did, too. Fine. I'm just saying that as pretty much the whole world of academia, government and most of private industry uses the term "accredit" or "accredited," there are no accredited degrees in hypnosis or hypnotherapy (or NLP). And that's just a fact.

That said, and now the discussion risks sliding over into the argument about the inherent quality of accredited versus unaccredited programs, which I don't want to do other than to say that there may very well be some unaccredited schools, colleges or universities out there that offer a bachelors, masters or doctorate of some kind in hypnosis or hypnotherapy. Said schools, colleges and/or universities may very well be quite rigorous and credible for all I know... though, without accreditation, it's always difficult to tell... which is the whole reason why accreditation exists in the first place: So we can easily tell -- and quickly -- without having to do all kinds of personal research.

The other point I was trying to make is that, by the generally accepted accreditation standards world's definition of the word, the only hypnosis and/or hypnotherapy programs (and they're not degree programs, mind you) that are truly "accredited," are the ones offered by HMI... like it or not.

This means that HMI's coursework actually stands a chance of being accepted in transfer by an accredited college or university toward an actual degree. Coursework from a degree in hypnosis or hypnotherapy (or NLP) from any of the unaccredited colleges or universities -- even if they're PhDs, would likely not be.

And in states like Oregon, it could actually be illegal to put one's unaccredited hypnosis and/or hypnotherapy degree(s) behind one's name on business cards, letterhead, on a resume, etc., because that state is one of the first states that is cracking down in diploma/degree mills by requiring that all degrees one claims in that state must be accredited by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agency. More states are revving-up to follow suit. In a decade or so -- probably longer, but I'm starting to think that maybe in no longer than a quarter century -- there may be no US states left where one can legally claim a degree of any kind that has not come from a legitimate, fully-accredited institution of higher learning. And when and if that happens, it won't be because there's anything inherently wrong with unaccredited institutions that are nevertheless rigorous and legitimate but, rather, because the Internet has helped diploma mills (which have been around for centuries, by the way) flourish as never before, and states are increasingly seeing the need to protect citizens from being harmed by bought, fake, bogus, diploma/degree-mill "degrees." Diploma/degree-mill operators are ruining it for everyone.

Whether we may or may not like HMI and/or the Kappas family (and I'm making no statement about that one way or the other), the value of making sure that one's hypnosis and/or hypnotherapy training is truly accredited by an agency approved by USDE and/or CHEA (as both of the accreditors DETC and ACCET are), is that one can talk about such training in states like Oregon. Additionally, one can rest assured that the training is rigorous, credible and legitimate.

That is not to say that The American Council of Hypnotists Examiners or any similar organization does not offer or approve training that is also rigorous, credible and/or legitimate. But without accreditation by an agency with the imprimatur of the United States Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA), how is one to know? That's where accreditation comes in. It eliminates the doubt. It does not ensure that the institution is best in its class. But it at least ensures that its courswork isn't a ripoff, is worthwhile, etc.; that it meets certain minimum educational standards -- standards that are tough to meet and should, therefore, be respected; and that said courswork will, likely, be acceptable in transfer to other educational institutions.

That's all I was saying... or that I'm saying, still.

Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Edited by - DesElms on 05/24/2005 10:00:50 PM
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ForumMaster

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2005 :  8:08:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit ForumMaster's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I think I have repaired the quotes pretty well throughout this thread. Please let me know if I have missed anything.

See firespiral - you ask a simple question...

All the best to all.

ForumMaster

Bigger is better! 150+ Scripts is now...
"250+ Scripts for Hypnosis Therapy."
(Instant download, CD-ROM, and textbook 3-ring binder)
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2005 :  9:42:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Hello Gregg, Your extended and often repetitous reply
could appear to some as a polemic to sell HMI as the best and only school to provide quality hypnotherapy education.

And your characterizing it that way, despite my bending over backward to make sure that what I was trying to say was so crystal clear that there could be no ambiguity, betrays your fear that people will go there instead of to your school, perhaps (and I emphasize the word "perhaps"), or whatever other training you prefer. Gil, believe me when I tell you that I could care less if anyone goes to HMI or your school or anywhere else. In fact, if your school or some other that you can recommend is really and truly the best training, then I would encourage everyone to go there...

...that is, as long as they understand the possible (and I stress the word "possible") downside of unaccredited training, generally. This is an accreditation argument, not an HMI argument. I only mentioned HMI because, as it happens, it's the only truly "accredited" hypnosis/hypnotherapy training out there. I'm not saying it either sucks or doesn't suck. Nor am I saying that about your school or whatever other training you prefer. I'm just trying to make sure that the word "accredited" isn't misapplied and that the reader is not misled. Please, Gil... this isn't what you're apparently thinking it is. Relax. I'm not your enemy.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Your effort to diminish and even whitewash the fact that HMI paid more than $250,000 to settle a class action suit by stating that best funded litagant always wins the cash settlement is lacking in credibility.
And your use of words like "always" changes the meaning of what I wrote. I never said what you're now characterizing my words to have meant. Please go back and re-read them carefully. And please be careful about using words like "whitewash," because that's yet another gross mischaracterization of my words caused, I'm guessing, because some of what I've written here is getting under your skin somehow... and, trust me, Gil, when I tell you that that was not my intention. Please relax.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
The suit was brought by a single student who served on HMI's Board. When he asked too many questions...
You seem to want the reader to hate HMI because it was involved in a lawsuit... or for whatever other reasons. Apparently you're more impressed with lawsuits than am I... I dunno. They can mean everything, and they can mean nothing. I'm not saying, in this particular case, what that lawsuit means... though you clearly are. I simply pointed-out, and correctly, that no matter what the lawsuit was about; no matter how right or wrong was anyone on either side; and no matter what the outcome, HMI, today, appears to be abiding by its agreements so that no harm to future students will likely occur; and whatever happened didn't rise to the level of making either of HMI's USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accreditors re-think the school's accreditation status... nor, from what I can tell, will it. I'm not saying that that makes HMI good or bad (though you're clearly making the point that it makes them bad, and that's fine). I'm merely pointing out that the reader, when s/he considers HMI (which I'm neither counseling him/her to do or not do), s/he could consider my points, too. Yours and mine. What... you're suggesting that they should only consider yours?

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Other graduates of HMI joined the suit simply to get their tuition money returned.
Hmmm. Your position would have been bolstered if you had written that they joined because they, too, could see how wrong HMI was. I applaud your honesty.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
The attorney served "pro bono"...
Your implication being, of course, that HMI's behavior was so egregious that the lawyer wanted to see justice done even if it mean s/he had to give away his/her services. Again, you seem to be injecting every point you can possibly inject to make HMI look as bad as you possibly can. And, hey... maybe HMI deserves that, I don't know. And, again, I should add that what you're opining is perfectly fine. It's your right to so opine. But, it is, nevertheless, true that none of it has kept HMI from continuing to operate, or its accreditors from revoking its accreditation. While the reader who is trying to figure out where to get his/her hypnosis/hypnotherapy training should most definitely take into consideration any of HMI's relevant prior bad acts, I'm simply trying to keep it all in some kind of reasonable perspective. As fair-minded as you appear to be by your posts elsewhere here, I'm having trouble believing that you wouldn't want the reader to get the whole picture.

And, anyway... we're veering off track, really, when you think about it. I never meant for this to be a discussion about HMI. I only mentioned it because it is the only accredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy program out there that I could even use as an example. I wasn't even trying to promote it or anything like that by my original posts. My point was, and remains, that the reader should not be confused or misled by powerful terms like "accredited" or "accreditation." They should be careful about people to have, for example, "PhD" in hypnotherapy behind their names because while such "degrees" may or may not have credibility, they're not accredited by anyone and, therefore, may or may not be worth the paper on which they're written. You've chastised me for my repetition, but when even you don't seem to get it, just imagine how fearful I am that the reader, who knows far less about all this than either you or I, will be confused if I don't!

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
For almost twenty-five years, HMI was a competitor of my school...

[...]

We were friends for many years and as I expressed disapproval over some questionable practices (in my opinion) the friendship began to go downhill.
So, in my opinion, maybe the reader here should take that into consideration, too. I mean... it would be reasonable and understandable if you now had a very negative attitude toward HMI. I know I certainly would, were I in your shoes. Your negative bias should be considered along with everything else. I'm not saying it should be given alot of weight, or a little. I'm just saying that it, too, should be considered.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
If you are as distanced from HMI as you wish us to believe...
And now you imply that maybe my disclaimer, here, is a lie. You know, Gil, you really need to be careful about whom you insult in places like this. You're not the only skilled debater here. Why would you want to make one of the others angry at you, too?

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
...your knowledge of HMI and the principals involved is minimal or non-existant when compared to my many hours of face-to-face contact and discussions with John and George Kappas and other members of the HMI organization over many years.
Okay, you've got me on that one. Since I don't even know the Kappases, and only know of HMI from what's on its web site, a phone call or two that I've made to both HMI and to its accreditors, and what I've read in various places, I'm guessing that your knowledge of HMI is vast, by comparison. And your opinion of it is clearly quite negative. Maybe that's earned, and maybe it's not. I'm guessing it might be, but I don't know... or care, really. Clearly HMI screwed-up in the past. It's reasonable, therefore, for the reader to consider that as a possible predictor of future bad behavior. All I'm saying is that as s/he does so, s/he should also consider the points I've made. Again, why would you want the reader to have anything less than as many angles on it as can be provided?

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I suggest that you back off and let things be.
Or what? Is that some kind of threat? Is my stock in you about to go down now? What are you saying, exactly?

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
We have covered the territory.
To your satisfaction, perhaps. Is that where you propose it should stop?

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
With Respect to all.
Except me, obviously.

Look, Gil. Let's not argue. You're a good guy. I'm a good guy (although, I realize you don't know that yet... and that you may have a hard time believing it after all this). But we agree, I think, that HMI is probably not the best place to get hypnosis/hypnotherapy training -- at least not via distance learning because that's probably not the best way, in any case... right?

We're probably closer together on all this than maybe you realize. I'm sorry if I offended you, but it's not going to stop me from saying what I think needs to be said. I'm sorry if that offends you, too.

But let's get along, no matter what, okay? Please.

Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Edited by - DesElms on 05/24/2005 10:11:56 PM
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HypnoDoc

USA
365 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2005 :  10:36:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit HypnoDoc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey, can I be a good guy too?

HypnoDoc

"Relax, Listen and ______ with Hypnosis" Audio Series.
(MP3 Instant Download, CD, and Cassettes)
250 Scripts for Hypnosis Professionals
(All the scripts you may ever need for your practice)
quote:
"Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling.
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2005 :  4:37:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Friends can agree to disagree. Your repititous championing HMI as the ONLY accrediated school infers a superior quality to their programs. This inference triggered my need to present a longer range view from close up.
Understood. But I'm not championing HMI so much as I'm just presenting it as an institution -- maybe a bad one, maybe a good one... who knows -- that just happens to be the only one in the universe that has accredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy coursework. I don't know how you can say that I'm inferring their superior quality when I keep clearly qualifying my words with little phrases like the one I used in the previous sentence about maybe it being good, maybe bad, etc. I've made it painfully clear that this isn't about HMI; that if I could use any other institution as an example I would, but I can't because it's the only accredited program out there; and, in the end, this is about accreditation, and not about HMI.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I suggested that we drop the discussion of HMI, apparently you are unwilling to accept the suggestion but rather characterize it as a threat.
It's disingenuous of you to characterize what you wrote as a mere "suggestion." Sure, it was a suggestion, but said suggestion was accompanied by the universally-recognized fightin' words "back off." You and I both know that if you said something like that to someone in an in-person situation, they would interpret your suggestion in a more threatening way than you're now alleging you intended it. And that's fine. I'm just not letting you get away with making it sound like the problem's mine.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Of course, you are always free to continue to speak of the exclusive qualities of HMI.
I have no idea of HMI's inherent qualities other than that some of its coursework/programs is/are accredited by agencies approved by USDE and/or CHEA. You keep trying to make that into more than I'm saying it is. It doesn't necessarily make HMI a better school -- or its coursework or programs better -- than anyone else's. It only indicates that HMI has met certain highly respectable and reliable (because they're set forth by USDE/CHEA) minimum quality standards that we can't possibly know are also being met by other possibly superior, but unaccredited, programs... which, if you think about it, is accreditation's purpose in the first place.

Rather than decry HMI for being accredited, others, in my opinion, should seek accreditation, too, so that the buyer of hypnosis/hypnotherapy training will be assured that those programs also meet certain minimum standards upon which the student may rely.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I find your use of the word enemy inappropriate language to describe my differing facts and opinions. These forums do not specify that viewpoints and information must be couched in polite, genteel and diplomatic language. I am aware of limits and I do not feel that I have breached those limits at any time in any discussion.
Understood. And you're right. But you're singling-out the word "enemy" with disregard for the common phrase of which it was a part. You seemed quite hostile to what I was saying, trying to make it about HMI when, in fact, it was about accreditation; and your language had an intensity about it which suggested that you found me and what I was saying threatening on some level. I'm not saying that you were threatened, I'm just saying that I kinda' got that feeling from what you wrote and how you wrote it. In such circumstances, it's not uncommon for the person on my end of such conversations to say things like, for example, "hey... relax," or "hey... be cool" or "chill" or whatever. The common phrase "I'm not the enemy" is simply another member of that category of common phrases and, therefore, the word "enemy" within it does not, in normal conversation, have the kind of import that would make it "inappropriate" under these circumstances.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I do respect your tenacity to continue saying over and over that HMI is the only accredited school when their "Hypnotherapy as a Career" program has never been accredited by any agency.
As I said, I've not researched that (nor do I care enough to), but I suspect you're right about the in-person, residential, two-night-a-week program to which you refer not being accredited by anyone. But I'm not so sure that I respect your tenacity in trying to paint the whole of HMI with that brush. All of HMI's distance learning stuff is accredited by DETC, a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accrediting agency; and all their continuing education stuff is accredited by ACCET, a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved accrediting agency; and those HMI hypnosis/hypnotherapy programs are the only such programs on the planet that can make such claims and, therefore, that can really and truly be considered "accredited" as most of society tends to use that word. My point is about accreditation, not about HMI. At this point, given how my using HMI as an example (and only because it's the only example from which I had to choose), I'd almost kill for the opportunity to list almost any other program as said example. But there just aren't any. HMI is the only game in town if one insists on the coursework being accredited. Personally, I think that the best of the unaccredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy programs out there should go about changing that situation by becoming accredited, too.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
Finally, you must have missed my statement that I closed my school ten years ago. I offer only Master Classes to practicing therapists who respond on the basis of my earned reputation.
And a fine reputation it is, from what I can tell. I'm trying to take nothing away from that, or from you, by anything I've written here. Those who do enough research on the Web about hypnosis/hypnotherapy will quickly stumble onto your Web site and there's no doubt in my mind that you know what you're doing; that you've been doing it for a long time; and that that's really something. And, no, I didn't miss it. I believe I adequately covered it when I added "or whatever other programs you prefer (or recommend" in my various statements here about your courses or your school versus HMI.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
It seems to me that you are saying that if I disagree with your incomplete information, it is a form of disrespect.
Well... I think that was sort of a a visceral response to being told to "back off." I apologize for then suggesting that you were not being, overall, respectful. You most certainly have been.

And I'm choking a little on the "incomplete information" characterization, though. I certainly didn't intentionally leave out anything. Agreed: I did not address the small part of HMI's programs that probably aren't accredited by anyone... but that was an error of omission, not commission. And, anyway, you pointed it out quite nicely here in any case, so the reader ends-up getting the full picture by hook or by crook. As for the lawsuit, I only had peripheral, distant knowledge of that in the first place; and, in fact, I learned more about it from you, here, than I had ever known (or cared to know). I most certainly did not intentionally leave that out. But even if I had, I'm not sure it's relevant anymore since HMI has clearly corrected all of those problems and, therefore, no future students will encounter or be harmed by them. In that sense, it's irrelevant; though I do agree that it's still nice to know for those who might see it as an indicator of the character of HMI's owners... which, I think, is kinda' your point. And in that sense, I agree that it's not irrelevant and it was right, therefore, for you to make sure the reader knew about that, too.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
I have nothing more to say on this subject.
Well, I certainly hope not since these posts have most certainly flushed-out pretty much every last relevant detail about the subjects that anyone seeking accredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy training could possibly ever need -- or want -- to know. I didn't do it alone. Your contribution was most certainly important and valuable.

quote:
Originally posted by mark-gil
With Respect to all who can accept it
The inference being that I can't, of course... but, no matter... I can, and do. Thank you. I hope you can see that it is reciprocated.

Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.
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gkappas

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2005 :  10:32:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit gkappas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow, all this talk about HMI and accreditation and the lawsuit. I can't help but want to respond to a couple of remarks. One is the lawsuit. The lawsuit was initiated by 0ne student, who was not "on HMI's board" as Gil Boyne claims, but ran for office in the Hypnotherapists Union and lost. The student said he wanted another election or he was going to sue. He sued. Of the 1000+ HMI students and graduates that he and his lawyers solicited, only two were willing to add their name to the lawsuit. He got a lawyer to represent him because he thought HMI had money and that Dr. John Kappas, married to actress Florence Henderson, had money. I guess he was right. After my father, John Kappas, died, my step mother did not want to keep up the fight. The lawyer sued not just HMI, but John Kappas and Florence Henderson as individuals. Dr. Kappas had been retired for more than 10 years as actively serving on HMI's management team. If you ask me, lawyers and these "class action" suits are like corporate pirates. They spot a ship they think is loaded and they pull up and attach themselves until you pay them to go away. One of their main claims was that "hypnotherapy is not a career" It should also be mention that the esteemed Mr. Boyne, offered the student money to support his pursuit of the lawsuit against HMI. But, Gil's always been a nice guy. The law that sued us under, 11200, has since been repealed in the last California election as the cause of frivolous lawsuits.

As for "accreditation" For Gil Boyne's statement that our our one year "career in hypnotherapy program" is not accredited is a complete falsehood. The accrediting agency, ACCET, accredits vocational institutions. They have accredited HMI as an institution and the programs it offers. Either Mr. Boyne is completely ignorant of the accrediting process, which is sad for a former school owner, or he is actively twisting the truth to compensate for his own schools not being accredited.

HMI is did not invent accreditation nor do we have a monopoly on it. Any school can apply if they meet the standards. HMI has been accredited for more than 15 years now. The fact that no other hypnotherapy school as done the same is sad.

I am so sick of other hypotherpay schools saying that accreditation doesen't exist or that HMI is not accredited. Its a pretty simply fact to verify.

Anyone that wants to verify it or look at what our accredited home study or accredited one year training and internship program looks like, can do so at www.hypnosis.edu

Furthermore, if you do look at www.hypnosis.edu, it is pretty easy to see why we are accredited and others are not. We offer a one year program where students attend two nights per week and saturdays. In addition to the coursework they complete a six month, in-house, supervised clinical internship. Our entire curriculum and instruction staff and course requirements are listed on-line. I know, I am biased, but I really do feel HMI offers a graduate school like training, without the requirement of an undergraduate degree. We work very hard to make the program better and better every year. And thats why we don't offer one-week training courses to become a hypnotherapist, like so many of our complaining competitors do.

To the gentleman, whom I do not know, who has been bantering with Gil Boyne about accreditation, thank you for being a rational and objective voice of reason in a field that seems to be filled with people in denial.

Sincerely,

George Kappas, M.A., M.F.T.
Director
Hypnosis Motivation Institute
www.hypnosis.edu
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2005 :  2:20:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Okay... so now I have a question of the both of you...

Each of you is responsible-for/involved-with/promotes what would appear to be separate but equally interesting and credible -- maybe even equally downright and objectively good and high-quality -- professional membership organizations for hypnotists/hypnotherapists. In Gil's case, there's the certification-granting American Council of Hypnotist Examiners; and in George's case, there's the HMI-affiliated American Hypnosis Association and the HMI-affiliated and certification-granting Hypnotherapists Union, Local 472. Professional membership and certification granting is a big deal. The imprimatur of membership and/or certification can be vastly livelihood-affecting. So here are my questions:
    FOR GIL: Will an HMI education qualify for ACHE membership and certification?

    FOR GEORGE: Will an ACHE-approved education qualify for AHA and/or Local 472 membership and/or certification?
I ask because it occurs to me that the battle between you two titans of the hypnosis/hypnotherapy world can have a fallout that has unintended negative consequences for those mere mortals who just want a good and valid hypnosis/hypnotherapy training, and who would like to belong to both organizations... but without getting all caught-up in whatever's going on between the two of you! With power comes responsibility. You've both created powerful little empires and each have followings which would at least appear to have little regard for one another's credibility. The loser, there, is the patient.

If the two of you really wanted to legitimize the craft, generally, you'd agree to disagree on certain things; but would find the things you can agree about and would, building thereupon, form a new, amazing, highly-credible professional membership and certification organization that promotes accredited training/education (including, maybe, even the creation of a degree program or two); and which establishes a set of educational and practice standards that so marvelously self-governs the field that state regulators would never need to worry about whether practitioners should be licensed.

But I digress. About my questions (above)... some answers, please... from both of you.


REFERENCES:

American Council of Hypnotist Examiners (ACHE)
http://www.hypnotistexaminers.org/index.html

American Hypnosis Association (AHA)
http://www.hypnosis.edu/aha/

Hypnotherapists Union, Local 472
http://www.hypnotherapistsunion.com/


Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Edited by - DesElms on 06/06/2005 2:30:58 PM
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gkappas

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2005 :  4:05:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit gkappas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dear Gregg,

The American Hypnosis Association (AHA) does not offer "certification". We chose to defer to the Hypnotherapists Union, local 472 for certification. The AHA offers "membership" and offers its members benefits such as access to quality liability insurrance, news, articles, a large video rental libary (over 165 titles) and a vast array of weekly continuing education seminars and classes.
Anyone with an interest in hypnosis can join the AHA.

A calendar of AHA events can be found at:


http://www.hypnosis.edu/aha/calendar/


The Hypnotherapists Union, Local 472, is an independent organization. HMI does not own it, control it or otherwise. We do refer people to the organization for certification and we do provide them free use of classroom space to hold their monthly board meetings or general membership meetings. It should be noted that the Hypnotherapists Union has a democratically elected board of directors, including President. The members elect their leaders every 3 years. It is the only democratically run certification agency that I am aware of.

The requirements for certification with this Union vary for the varying "levels" of certificaiton.

Certified Hypnotist = a Foundations course in hypnosis from a State approved school of hypnosis (any State)

Certified Master Hypnotist = 100 hours of classroom instruction from a State approved school of hypnosis.

Certified Hypnotherapist = 300 hours of classroom instruction and 200 hours of supervised practical experience. Classroom hours must come from a school of hypnosis approved by the State. Experience hours can come from the school or an independent supervisor who themselves are a Certified Union hypnotherapist.

You can review the Hypnotherapists Union at www.hypnotherapistsunion.com

Thanks for your interest.





George Kappas, M.A., M.F.T.
Director
Hypnosis Motivation Institute
www.hypnosis.edu
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anthony

Canada
305 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2005 :  10:02:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gil, George, a pox on both your houses, it would seem that you both suffer from a common problem, and I find it sickening that both of you having money and power at stake, attack each other with such venom at the expense of a viable group or groups with the interests of the clients as your prime goal.... Being retired, I have no stake in money, power, or any other impediment from speaking out and saying you are both wrong, because regardless of your claims and arguments, neither of you is willing to put others first. You have heard the voice of reason, and if you can't listen to it, and combine for the betterment of hypnosis, then some of us have no time for you either. Stop the BS and the clawing to be first, and start remembering the code of ethics so many of us sign as we begin our journey, and remember that the best of us kept that oath as sacred over the years. I thank God that he spared me the stupid arguments over certification, because Alberta recognises HSA as a valid group of practitioners, dedicated to the education, and care of the public regardless of personal gain. Idiots we have also, but not the powermongers, so my advice is to stop the mud slinging, and use your mental abilities for a better purpose, or get the hell out of it all, because you don't have what it takes to show leadership to a group mainly composed of decent caring people.....
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ProfLen

South Africa
2 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2005 :  11:08:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit ProfLen's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I know I am a newbie here, but Anthony, may I echo your sentiments!!!!!!!! One can really only take ongoing rambling and grumbling for just so long before it gets totally boring.

C'mon guys, points made and taken!

Len.
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imagine-now

17 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2006 :  07:11:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[edit] I'm deleting the couple sentences I first wrote here. I didn't write anything offensive or disrespectful but whatever dispute is going on, it apparently goes back a long way and this is just a surface level. Whatever comment I make about it would be out of ignorance since I don't know the details and don't really care to know. None of my business really.

I hope whatever needs to get worked out, works out for the best. Before the discussion disinegrated, I found the discussion very educational. ...so thank you!

Edited by - imagine-now on 04/05/2006 12:37:39 PM
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anthony

Canada
305 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2006 :  11:26:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sadly, it did nothing for the original poster. He will need to investigate Australian law, and possibly local laws to get his answer. If he came to Alberta for example, he would need to be a member of HSA to be recognised by our Provincial Government, but this would do him no good if he moved to another Province. In the UK however, there are those who are allowed to practise within the NHS, and those who are not. I am not conversant with the groups involved, but all can legally practise, just not get paid via the health services.
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Lori

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2009 :  02:56:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am a masters level mental health counselor from Indiana and I have met Gil Boyne at one of his supported schools in Santa Fe. I read this entire thing and I have to say that I think Gil Boyne is a huge narcissist and he started an arguement where there was none.

Whoever missed that wasn't paying attention. I admire the academic guy who was trying to make a simple point about schools getting proper accreditation. Gil is a nutty old man. He had some good stuff he did with people/patients back in the day, but he is losing it now in my oppinion after reading this. He is in his 80's ya know. What I don't approve of about Gil's schools is he has students performing hypnosis on each other in small groups in regard to very personal matters and then you are asked to get up from this gut renching session and hug people you don't know and who are learning how to do hypnosis by using you as a subject in regard to your own personal past hurts (and we all have them). This is unethical in my oppinion. This type of individual therapy for the students needs to be done one on one with an experienced hypnotherapist only. Not fellow students. And all schools need ACCREDITATION. Its like having a president with no congress. In Indiana we have to attend a state approved school by our licensing board and only MDs are exempt. It is similar to HMI. It is 10 months long with a lengthy on-site practicum/internship. Lori
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2009 :  04:47:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Lori,

Wow. My first posting in this thread was three... going on four years ago, now... and I had nearly forgotten about it. It also appears to have been pruned a bit by the moderator... and as I think back on it, I seem to recall him emailing me about it and being generally very fair-minded... though I can no longer remember what were all the issues. I can see some lifted quotes to which I was replying in some posts, but the original posts from which they came seem not to be here anymore... yet somehow that doesn't disturb the overall flow, so I guess the moderator did a pretty good job.

It's refreshing to find someone who has a real and accredited graduate-level education; and who understands the important role that accreditation plays, just generally... in pretty much all forms of education, not just hypnotherapy.

Sadly, the unaccredited and quite often unprofessional hypnosis/hypnotherapy training programs abound and continue... with perhaps more of them existing today than there were before. HMI, to the best of my knowledge, continues to be the only hypnosis/hypnotherapy training in the United States that's accredited by agencies approved by the United States Department of Education (USDOE) and/or by the Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA)...

...which means that HMI, like it or not, remains the only hypnosis/hypnotherapy training which may legitimately call itself "accredited." Any form of so-called "accreditation" (and I'm referring, here, only to academic accreditation within the United States) which is not USDOE- and/or CHEA-approved is not really accreditation. And boy-oh-boy are there ever a lot of hypnosis/hypnotherapy trainings out there which call themselves "accredited." But, in tactics most often used by diploma and/or degree mills, most of those so-called "accreditors" are just made-up by someone... sometimes by the very person who provides the very training which his own made-up accreditor accredits. And that sort of thing is classic diploma millist behavior!

As is the case with virtually all other forms of higher education, a given educational program's (or program provider's) lack of accreditation does NOT necessarily mean that said program (or its provider) isn't credible; or that said program isn't worth pursuing. As with any unaccredited program or provider, those interested in partaking thereof must determine if whatever will be the outcome will help them achieve whatever are their goals. And there most certainly are very credible educational programs and providers in this world which are not accredited.

However, without accreditation to tell us, at a mere glance, whether a given program or its provider is credible by virtue of its having achieved accreditation, we are forced to perfom our own due diligence to figure it out for ourselves. More importantly, whenever or if ever those with credentials which are not accredited (or which are not from an accredited provider) present said credentials to a potential employer, or to an accredited educational institution as requisite to a higher-level credential, then said employer and/or educational institution has no easy means (by simply seeing that it's accredited) of determining its credibility. And most employers and registrars won't peform their own due diligence to figure out if it's credible, despite its lack of accreditation. So, therefore, the job or degree candidate with the unaccredited credential usually can't use it very much of anyplace except places where accredited credentials are neither valued nor required... like at unaccredited schools, or working for employers where licensing, for example, isn't an issue (since most licensing schemes require of licensees that thier credentials are accredited).

You likened a school which has no accreditation to a president (I presume you meant of the United States) with no congress. However, a better analog, I think, would be a president without an election. The issue is imprimatur.

But with your central posit, that all schools need accreditaiton, I could not more strongly agree... just generally... and that's regardless whether one is referring to schools teaching hypnosis/hypnotherapy, or schools teaching medicine, or schools teaching engineering, or English, or mathematics... or even schools teaching reverse-left-leaning underwater basketweaving.

As for Gil and whether or not he's nutty or old or unprofessional, I simply cannot comment. I know (and you alluded to) that in this very thread he seemed not to grasp the points I was making; and though I may not remember all the issues involved in the moderator's pruning, I most certainly remember Gil's intansigence being quite frustrating. That said, it's very clear that he has made a nice and respectable career of what he does; and unless someone speaks up and cites provable incidents of his doing something inherently wrong, or unethical, or harming someone, then it's difficult to argue with his success and reputation. I don't know Gil; and I don't know enough about him to say very much more than that. I certainly think that your comments about him are worth considering, though; and I, for one, thank you for them.

Most troubling about this thread, though, as I look back on it some three-plus years later, is that some three-plus years later the real essence of my question to both Gil and Mr. Kappas remains unanswered. Mr. Kappas did a fairly nice job trying; but Gil didn't address it at all. And I'm sure that that's because it's a very difficult question for Gil to answer, considering the fact that answering it in a way that would make him look the most reasonable requires of him that he acknowledges the validity of Mr. Kappas's training.

According to the web site of Gil's American Council of Hypnotist Examiners (ACHE) (www.hypnotistexaminers.org), the training provided by Mr. Kappas's accredited school (HMI) would seem to meet the number-of-hours-of-schooling requirement for ACHE certification; but Kappas's school not being ACHE approved would ultimately prohibit anyone with HMI training from becoming ACHE certified. That said, there is language on the ACHE site regarding its Qualifying Board being able to waive certain things, so perhaps it would be willing to wave the requirement of the applicant's school having to have been ACHE approved considering the provable fact that Kappas's HMI training is, from everything I can tell (and I've researched it fairly thoroughly), easily on-par with that of any ACHE-approved school. Moreover, bold though it may be, and though only an admitted surmise, I dare say that not one single ACHE-approved school is operating today at DETC or ACCET accreditation standards...

...which, in my opinion, makes ACHE's at least facial refusal to accept HMI training as partially qualifying for its certifications all the more vexing. As I earlier mentioned, it is ultimately the patient, even if only indirectly, who suffers from this silly feud between these two respected men.

How sad... still... these, some three-plus years later.

If Gil is as up in years as you say, then one would think that he'd be concerned about his legacy at this point in his life. How nice it would be if he would bolster that legacy by stepping forward and extending the olive branch to Mr. Kappas in the form of seeing to it that ACHE would accept HMI training, on its face, in satisfaction of the educational requirement for its certifications.

It would also be nice if the "New Legislative Activity" page of the ACHE web site were updated to reflect that the whole SB577 thing is no longer "new" legislative activity since it has, for several years now, been codified into law; and so, therefore, the reference to "SB577" is no longer appropriate and should be replaced by referring to the actual statutory code number. But now, perhaps, I pick nits. (Hey... if I'm only gonna' post once every few years, I may as well cover as many things as possible, right?) [grin]

Thank you for the posting, Lori, and welcome to the forum... though, as I think about it, I don't really spend enough time around here to be welcoming anyone. Still... welcome, nonetheless.

Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Edited by - DesElms on 01/06/2009 05:34:26 AM
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2010 :  3:00:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It has been yet another year since my last posting in this thread; and I'm here again this year only because someone read it and sent me an email about it today; and while re-reading through it just now, I realized that some information in it is a little bit out of date. So, in the interest of no one being misled, I just want to add...


It's true that HMI remains the only truly accredited school in the United States which specializes primarily in hypnosis/hypnotherapy; and HMI's web site is accurate when it makes the claim that it is the first such accredited school. Personally, I think that HMI could (and should) include that it's the only school offering purely hypnosis/hypnotherpy credentials which is really and truly accredited, but I'm sure the reason it doesn't make that second claim is becuase of said claim's inordinate reliance upon the precision of semantics.

What I mean is that while HMI remains the only truly accredited school to offer "hypnosis" or "hypnotherapy" credentials (with those words actually used in the names of said credentials), there are, finally, now, at least a couple other schools out there which offer truly accredited degrees which include "hypnosis" and/or "hypnotherapy" as core components, but which don't use those words (or even things like "neuro linguistic programming" or "NLP") in their credential names. That's where the semantics part comes in.

Two examples of such schools which come immediately to mind are:

  • American Pacific University (AMU) (http://ampac.edu/) which offers a Masters Degree in "Transpersonal Psychology" based in large measure on hypnosis/hypnotherapy techniques and training; and,


  • Atlantic University (AU) (http://www.atlantic-university.org) which offers a "Master of Arts in Transformative Theories and Practices" that contains heavy doses of hypnosis/hypnotherapy training and academic study.
Note that AMU was not accredited back in 2005 when I made the second posting in this thread; and I even questioned back then whether it was credible. It has since, however, become accredited, which means that it is at least minimally credible; that its finances and the ethics of its operations are in order, and that its coursework is rigorous and worthy of being called "academic." It also means that a person would not be arrested for putting its degree on his/her resume in states (such as Oregon, for example, just to name one) which have criminalized the use of educational credentials on resumes, business cards, job applications and advertising which are not truly accredited. Those are just some of the benefits of accreditation to both the school and its graduates; and is partly why accreditation of any kind of schooling is so, so important.

Both of these schools, like HMI, are DETC accredited; and, of course, DETC is an accreditor approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and the Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). It is simply inaccurate, then, not to include these two fully accredited degrees as largely (if not primarily) hypnosis/hypnotherapy credentials, yet neither of the words "hypnosis" or "hypnotherapy" are in their degree names.

So, in that sense, HMI, then, is simply no longer the only truly accredited school out there offering "hypnosis" and/or "hypnotherapy" credentials; but HMI remains the only one using either of those words in the names of its credentials (again, the semantic thing)... and of course, it will forever be able to rightly claim that it was the first truly accredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy training in the US. Kudos to HMI for that.


As I've explained in other postings, my hypnosis training was over thirty years ago, in a one-on-one/apprenticeship sort of setting, with a psychologist who, at the time, was at University of Chicago. I've never practiced as a hypnotherapist, though I've used it now and then over the years to help friends, family and a few others. I've certainly never charged a fee for it, or in any way used it to earn even a partial living. But I've certainly kept-up with the craft over the years; and I think it's really nice that there are more truly accredited programs available in the world. Were I ever to decide to use it in any sort of even semi-professional situation, I'd definitely want to, at bare minimum, go through HMI's training, and then join the union, etc. And, in fact, as my own career has begun heading in a new pastoral direction, including helping the homeless...

http://www.tinyurl.com/deselms-card

...I am increasingly intrigued by what might be possible in the area of addiction recovery using hypnosis as but one of a package of approaches. I get that there is huge debate about the efficacy of hypnosis when it comes to addictions (or, if you ask at least some people, when it comes to anything else, for that matter), but it is that very debate which so intrigues me. We'll see. In any case, I'd never dare experiment with it until and unless I had the proper credentials (even though I technically have the training)... and that's where places like HMI or APU or AU (and the like) would come in.


I've also noticed, in recent years, more and more articles and studies coming out of (largely the psychology departsments of) some of America's big-name, accredited colleges and universities which hail the potential benefits of properly-done hypnosis and hypnotherapy. For example, take a look at some of the listings in this Google search:

http://tinyurl.com/yjz9at8

Obviously, not every one of those search results supports what I just posited, but if one will just look down through them for a page or two or three, it's clear that more and more credible institutions of higher learning are experimenting with and writing about hypnosis and hypnotherapy

Then again, there's also the guy who runs the "Quack Watch" web site...

http://tinyurl.com/ylf7mdf

...who basically thinks it'a all a bunch of hooey. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't...

...but at least there are now some more really credible and legitimate (and, most importantly, fully accredited) credentials available out there. Gotta' like that. And my reason for mentioning it is that because of all that interest, who knows, maybe several more truly accredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy-based degrees will spring-up over time.

And, let's be honest, here: Since there are so many doubting Thomases out there regarding the efficacy of hypnosis/hypnotherapy, it probably makes some sense for those who dare to practice it to ensure that their training and credentials are as legit as possible. And when it comes to education, nothing evidences inherent credibility and legitimacy better and/or faster than accreditation (and by that I mean accreditation by a USDE- and/or CHEA-approved agency, not some bogus, made-up accreditor such as diploma mills use).


And... oh, yeah... I should add: I'm talking, here, about schools that are truly accredited in the United States, where the pickens when it comes to truly accredited hypnosis/hypnotherapy training remain slim. It turns out, however, that likes of the UK and Australia have been a bit more willing to recognize hypnosis/hypnotherapy training programs as legitimate and worthy of "accreditation," as we, in the US, understand and use that term (and as I am using it in this thread). Fully accredited (again, as we, in the US understand that term, and as I'm using it in this thread) certificates and diplomas in various hypnosis/hypnotherapy-related things are, indeed, available in the UK and Australia. Such credentials comply with and are approved pursuant to those two countries's higher-education quality assurance frameworks (which is what makes them "accredited," as I'm using that term here); and some of them aren't that expensive... and are even available via distance learning, with no residency requirement. As earlier explained herein, such foreign credentials can easily be declared equivalent to US accredited credentials by means of a "US Foreign Credential Evaluator" such as AACRAO or any NACES member agency. So then, my point is that if one agrees with me that one must try to get hypnosis/hypnotherapy training that's really and truly accredited, there's more than one way to skin a cat.


So, then... well... I guess that's all I wanted to add here on the roughly one year anniversary of my last post in this now... what... almost six-year-old thread.

Hope it helps.



Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Edited by - DesElms on 01/23/2010 3:35:22 PM
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Lawrence Smith

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2010 :  8:05:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wanted to add to this discussion as a current student at HMI via the distance learning option. As of today's writing, I am half-way through the 11 month program at HMI.

To Gregg DesElms,
In an earlier post from many years ago, back in 2005, you said that you didn't believe that HMI was the best place to get hypnosis/hypnotherapy training. 5 years later, I wanted to give you a little of my personal experience in the program.

Given than technology must have improved in the meantime, I find the school experience to be not much different from, and in many cases superior to, online colleges such as Western International University which I have also attended.

The courses have given me a fairly good survey of the field, and I find my confidence continually building as I progress. I wish I had such a good experience when i was a college student back in the 80's!

I've managed to acquire quite a bit of actual experience so far, via adventuresome family and friends at first, and now through 2nd degree of separation, their friends or associates. I provide hypnosis experiences at no charge, while I gain experience. I have about 80 session-hours so far in this way, out of the 200 that HMI requires you to pursue. I've helped clients in session session on topics that include sports performance, pain management, anxiety, depression, fear/phobia, victims of workplace abuse, and past-life regression.

I am under supervision via my live-person tutor/instructor provided by HMI, and also by a Dr. of Psychology under a supervision relationship I undertook on my own. I refer to both regarding treatment modalities, my progress, and my client's progress (or occasional lack thereof).

Given that there was no one at my locale who, in my opinion, could provide the width and depth on the subject, I feel this is at least close to as good as going to the school in person. I'm also positive that much of what can be done via distance learning is up to the student. You have to wring from this as much as possible, for the sake of their future clients. But isn't education at least as much the student's responsibility?

For anyone else reading the thread who's interested in whether HMI does what it sets out to do, I can give you my opinion that it does. But also, don't be shy about going out and getting that experience for yourself! Finally, be willing to enter a therapeutic relationship to make sure you're doing right for the client, from an independent and unbiased vantage point.

-Lawrence M. Smith
Certified Hypnotist
<Hypnotherapist-In-Training>
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DesElms

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2010 :  10:29:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit DesElms's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence Smith

To Gregg DesElms,
In an earlier post from many years ago, back in 2005, you said that you didn't believe that HMI was the best place to get hypnosis/hypnotherapy training. 5 years later, I wanted to give you a little of my personal experience in the program.
Ummm... well, I'd have to go back and carefully re-read my posts to know for sure, but since I know how I've always felt about HMI, I have to say that I don't think I ever wrote that I believed it wasn't a good place to get hypnotherapy training. Rather, I think I said I didn't know if it was a good place... maybe it is, or maybe it isn't... something like that; and that was part of a larger conversation wherein my point was that regardless whether it was good or bad, it was at least accredited... and at that time, no other program was. The real issue was accreditation. I only even brought HMI into the conversation as an example of a hypnotherapy program that was actually accredited.

I also may have posted here or somewhere else that hypnosis seemed (and I stress that word: seemed) like a difficult thing to learn properly (and I stress that word: properly) by distance learning (as opposed to some kind of in-person modality). However, I confess that I've since come to realize that even hypnosis can be taught fairly (and surprisingly) credibly if enough technology is thrown at the task.


quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence Smith

Given than technology must have improved in the meantime, I find the school experience to be not much different from, and in many cases superior to, online colleges such as Western International University which I have also attended.
And which, for the reader's benefit, if we're talking about this place...

http://www.wintu.edu

...is also accredited. (SEE: http://chea.org/search/actionInst.asp?CheaID=1470)


quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence Smith

The [HMI] courses have given me a fairly good survey of the field, and I find my confidence continually building as I...
[SNIP FOR BREVITY]
...to both regarding treatment modalities, my progress, and my client's progress (or occasional lack thereof).

Given that there was no one at my locale who, in my opinion, could provide the width and depth on the subject, I feel this is at least close to as good as going to the school in person. I'm also positive that much of what can be done via distance learning is up to the student. You have to wring from this as much as possible, for the sake of their future clients. But isn't education at least as much the student's responsibility?
Most of us don't have a hinge on the back of our skulls, and a latch on the front (er... well... there was my uncle Mort... but that's another discussion for another day [grin]), so that teachers can just open the top of our skulls and dump-in knowledge/learning. As with most things in life, one gets out of whatever educational program in which one is enrolled exactly what one puts into it. If one is committed to by-golly learning the material, one could almost do it pretty much no matter how bad was the instructor, as long as, instructor be damned, the basic material was there in books or videos or audios or whatever. Abraham Lincoln, as an example, taught himself law entirely by reading books. So, yes, categorically, I suppose education is as much the student's responsibility (as the school's or the instructor's).

And you needn't be an apologist for the value of distance learning to those who live far away from the particular school they want to attend, or from any school which teaches the particular thing they want to learn. That's the whole point of distance learning. And I'm glad to read that HMI's particular form of distance learning has been good for you.

That comes as little surprise to me, though, because, after all, HMI is accredited. Accreditation ensures at least a minimum level of quality; and remember that that "quality" involves more than just how nicely the material was presented. One of the reasons that no school -- no matter what kind it is -- can become accredited until after it has graduated some students is because one of the things the accreditor does is contacts quite a few of those students and asks them if the coursework was effective, and if it has actually helped them in their lives and/or careers. No matter how good the presenters are in HMI's audios or videos, and no matter how well-written are its texts, if HMI's coursework didn't also flat-out get the job done, it simply wouldn't have gotten accredited. And, of course, accreditation takes a whole bunch of other things into consideration, too. But right now I'm just talking about measurable effectiveness.

You seem to be saying that your HMI coursework was effective; and I'm saying both that that's nice, and that because HMI's accredited, that's not terribly surprising.


quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence Smith

For anyone else reading the thread who's interested in whether HMI does what it sets out to do, I can give you my opinion that it does. But also, don't be shy about going out and getting that experience for yourself! Finally, be willing to enter a therapeutic relationship to make sure you're doing right for the client, from an independent and unbiased vantage point.
Excellent advice!


Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.
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Alley Avrin

India
6 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2015 :  03:04:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks to give clarification on the accrediting issues.. You also clearify class action lawsuit so well.
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cmpaton

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2015 :  8:54:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit cmpaton's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks so much for this thread and all the information. I have been trying to determine the best program to pursue that doesn't involve a lot of travel. I had felt uneasy about HMI but may now reconsider.

Mostly, I wanted to add for others looking that there is an "accredited" certification from Saybrook University in "Clinical and Applied Hypnosis":

http://www.saybrook.edu/academic-affairs/non-degree/mbm/hypnosis

Saybrook University is accredited by the Senior Commission of Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC), a regional accrediting agency recognized by the US Department of Education and by the State of California.

I don't know anything more about the program than what is on the website, but Saybrook is a well-respected school.


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