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paul jones

United Kingdom
5 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2005 :  9:27:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit paul jones's Homepage  Reply with Quote
i am very interested in the psychological mechanics of hypnosis and hypno therpay, how about a theory post?

state vs non state theory
ie: cognitive socio-compliance and beleif hypothesis vs. trance state hypothesis

jtsullivan

4 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2005 :  7:36:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have had a theory of hypnotism for many years that is very structured. It is overly structured for the purpose of analysis. It does explain things I knew about hypnotism and it has explained or predicted other things - additional outputs. In order to present this analysis, it was necessary for me to analyze my nightly dreaming. I am very aware of my dream observer because I remember everything but rarely become lucid.

In my Usual State of Consciousness (USC) I am aware of a certain sense of "I". Let us call this Consciousness simply "I". Compared to the dream state, I have a relatively much higher level of control/access to critical judgement and it is intrinsic to the sense of "I" so lets call the Control Element "I-control".

=> When I dream I have a similar sense of "I", but it is definitely not the same. This is very clear to me because I dream vividly and remember my dreams and all my feelings at that time. I remember moments of questioning absurd situations, but; my critical judgement is not available to me, unless the context of the dream demands it. In fact it is actively suppressed by a not-I element. This effect is spectacular, such as when you dream your home 15 miles from the ocean is now oceanfront. I am forced to confabulate lies and false memories to support the theme. I will call the normal dream Consciousness the “Dream Observer (DO)”. The Dream Observer, as I have so far described it, is wholly passive, but; it is really a participant like an overwhelmed improvisational actor swept along by external direction, setting and expectation but still a partner in determining the story line. For this reason I include in the Dream Observer the concept of this dominated but participating improv-actor and a contributor to the story. Some dreams have a media form of stream of consciousness and others have a more pointed message and story.

=> By analogy to the USC where I can divide the world into I and Not-I; we can divide the dream world into I and Not-I. Not physically but by perception and control. What is the Not-I? Why am I dreaming about my basement that is changed in incongruous ways. Why have I gone back in time? Where did the theme, feeling and mood come from? Why do I agree to false memories? What compels me to go down there when there is a foreboding sense and I don't want to. I call all these Not-I elements the Dream Director (DD). The dream Control Element = "Dream Director" and it is the relative higher control element in the dream state. Relatively, this is not the control center in the USC.

=> Where does coercive hypnotism come from? There is an economy in evolution that does not develop extra body part or extra behavior. I am not talking about a person referred to as being "hypnotized as they read a book". I am talking about those instances of a dominating state in which, for instance, a stage hypnotist (or experimenter) can tell a person that mathematics is funny and a person that is usually too inhibited and has no acting ability will play the role with conviction and more significantly - ignore everyone else in the audience. This, to me, is a distinct state from the Usual State of Consciousness. A completely honest and sober person who is directed by the hypnotist, or knowledge of what is expected, will confabulate a story of satanic abuse (so convincingly that the FBI investigated for all the murdered sacrificed babies /other evidence/participants and nothing came of the investigation) or past lives or alien abduction. This is spectacular and needs to be explained.

=> My theory is simply this: The hypnotized person, without changing physiological state, gives up their usual state of consciousness to become (consciousness-) the Dream Observer and allows the hypnotist (control element-) to become the Dream Director. One obvious induction method is relaxation and related techniques that "bore" the left brain into giving up control. Just as we do every night! I do not have an explanation for other induction methods but they must result in the giving up of left brain control "I" of the USC. In dreaming we switch control to the right brain function of the dream director. That is why its unique messages are often in the visual form of a verbal pun. The right brain is normally verbally challenged when it is driving the point.

Let us list the elements so far:
CONDITION------PHYSIOLOGICAL--------CONSCIOUSNESS----CONTROL
------------------------STATE-------------------------------ELEMENT
==========================================================
USC----------------AWAKE-------------------- I----------------I-control
DREAMING----------ASLEEP----------------DO----------- DREAM DIR
HYPNOTISM----------AWAKE------------- -DO------------HYPNOTIST (as DD)
These are outputs of combination that I did not think about when I started this theory.
LUCID DREAMING--ASLEEP----------------I------------------I-control
CORRIDOR DREAM-ASLEEP----------------I-----------------NOT ACTIVE
Trans. Meditation-----AWAKE---------------DO---------------PRIOR INTENTION
FUGUE-----------------AWAKE---------------DO---------------DREAM DIR

This theory also explains why honest persons who are hypnotized will tell convincing stories of satanic abuse, past lives or alien abduction wholly according to the specialty of the hypnotist. The same type of thing happens every night.

It also predicts that if a hypnotist goes too far - a lower level of resistance/inhibition can be triggered and the hypnotized person could become lucid. I read of an account of this by Roy Hunter in hypnosis.alt. FAQ.

Both these states share amnesia, false memories, resistance, lucidity, ability to tune out external stimulus (but hypnotism is not physiological sleep), restricted access to critical judgement unless direction includes it. Why do honest people lie both when they are dreaming and when they are hypnotized? This is why the the hypnotized person is the worst experimental subject imaginable.

I know that there are many partial effects and states but partial hypnotism effects or long term effects from therapists (another route to the same transaction?) but this does not invalidate hypnotism any more than all the partial effects of rest, momentary reverie etc. invalidate the state of sleep.

Modern theorist in deconstructing hypnotism are sweeping out this important link. Deconstruction is more of an uncertainty principle and a political position than a theory in itself. Imagine, if all sleep study was limited to the entire spectrum of rest. Nothing would be known at this time. Surely the “state” of sleep could be denied if you were far-fetched enough to compare it to momentary reverie (even though they do share common elements). Luckily it is not politically necessary to deny the state of sleep.
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mark-gil

United Kingdom
445 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2005 :  9:40:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit mark-gil's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello JT. Sullivan, Your theory of hypnosis is absolutely brilliant!
It is unique, original and comprehensive. I read it several times to savor the full meaning and impact. I could never have come up with such a theory, but different minds work in different ways. God Bless you for such an important contribution. Please post more of your thinking.
With Respect, Gil Boyne

Gil Boyne
www.gil-boyne.com
[Gil Passed Away May 5, 2010]
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jtsullivan

4 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2005 :  9:51:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gil:
What a gracious acceptance for me - a non-professional. I was so surprised after my previous experiences that I wondered if it was for real. Was your praise sarcastic? Then I checked your site. I guess its just the little people who act that way.

Anyway, I have been analyzing everthing compulsively all my life and doing some reading about scattered topics at the popular level. I am just a guesser. But there is not reason why I can't hit on a few things - in fact some of them seem obvious to me. I am sometimes surprised though about the state of knowledge for some topics. Here is some more guessing. I was surprised to read there is so much questioning about why we dream. Here is a vignette I wrote up some time ago for a post:
============================================
Why we have dreams

The evolution of man’s dreaming reaches way back into his primitive mammalian past. Let us imagine how it helped him in primitive conditions.

A carefree juvenile is being warned to stay away from the high grass but like any youngster the communication may be clear but the urgency is not there. It does not compete with his short attention span and curiosity. He is totally aborbed in play.

He notices the adults stiffen and sniff the air. Strange noises come from them and he can see the whites of their eyes. They begin to look like children he has seen that were frightened. He smells a peculiar smell. He wonders what this means.

Suddenly everyone is screaming wildly. His mother almost dislocates his shoulder as she yanks him and runs. A monsterous animal leaps from the tall grass and seizes one of the pack who screams pitiously. Blood and panic.

Question – will this juvenile dream that night and on subsequent nights. Will these dreams be nightmares – very common in young people. Will not all these associations be cooked in at a low level in his consciousness. They say the brain scans of Viet nam vets who have seen combat are not the same as the general population.

The next time he is carefree (maybe never to the same degree as before) and absorbed in the immeditate but smells that smell or sees the adults get still or sees that look or he hears those peculiar noises or gets too close to the high grasss – will not his attention be automatically riveted and adrenalin flow. Is this not a survival trait? The hidden observer?

Evolution is not some theory in a book. It is a revealing instrument that you can use like a botonist would use ultraviolet light. Shine it on any behavior that we evolved and the answer may be obvious. One tip – use primitive man. Our current situation is not the environment that we evolved in the last 50 million years.
===========================================================
Is this too difficult?

One of the things that should help us all is to realize that traditional 'scientific' thinking, pre-complexity, deterministic can explain nothing in terms of biological systems, let alone consciousness. These are self organizing systems that have been laughing at the limits of determinism for millions of years. If we follow the laws of deterministic science no biological system could exist. Think of the communication loss in DNA alone.

The conscious mind (left) must be rooted in the expected and absorbed in the immediate, even if it is play. The hidden observer can compare with past associations and trigger a mental tap on the shoulder. Dreaming sets up the associatates after the remains of the day are relived and re-hashed. Things that the left brain USC is willing to ignore or deny are associated and relived with new intensity and re-tuned with the glandular responses. I think of this as "hard wiring" although it is not in the sense of a deterministic mechanism but problably a chaotic scein (A chatotic mechanism that can hold complex interacitons for comparison and pattern matching). Is this difficult? I have received all of these pieces from others in articles. I just put them together in a good guess. I fail to see the harm and thank you for your indulgence.


Jim S
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mark-gil

United Kingdom
445 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2005 :  3:54:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit mark-gil's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Jim, Sarcasm is the most vicious form of criticism. Mostly used by young people and angry ones who are often semantically handicapped. I am 81 years of age and hardly ever express anger (toward an individual) anymore. I try to say exactly what I mean in words that communicate easily. I am glad that you concluded that my words were heartfelt
and sincere. Your dream essay touches on the very principle that is central in my work. Keep your posts coming. They are meaningful and I am pleased to learn from you.
With Respect, Gil Boyne

Gil Boyne
www.gil-boyne.com
[Gil Passed Away May 5, 2010]

Edited by - mark-gil on 10/12/2005 3:57:56 PM
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jtsullivan

4 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2007 :  11:01:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
5/6/200707
I would like to add a clarification about this proposition and how I relate hypnotism to sleep. In one forum casual readers thought that I was ignoring the well established research that shows a hypnotized person is not physiologically asleep. I could point out several places that show I am not ignoring this:
The hypnotized person, without changing physiological state, gives up their usual state of consciousness to become (consciousness-) the Dream Observer
The table also clearly labels the Hypnotism row under Physiological State as awake

Let me put it more positively. There are certain states that have been ratified by behavioral evolution: the usual state of consciousness - Awake, Dreaming. There are other states that are combinations of behavioral functions. They are emergent- Fugue and sleep walking is a recombination of behavioral functions that seem to be in the wrong physiological state. They are not usual and are emergent and are not ratified for survival value from the viewpoint of evolution.

Consider the symmetry in the process of becoming a lucid dreamer compared to my suggestion about hypnosis.

In changing from dreaming to Lucid Dreaming we shift consciousness and the control element from the dominated Dream Observer to the I of the Usual State of Consciousness while not changing our physiological state. Can this be denied? This shift and Fugue and Sleep walking and Transcendental Mediation show that such recombinations exist usual or unusual, ratified or emergent.

In Hypnotism we shift consciousness and the control element from the I of the Usual State of Consciousness to the Dream Observer while not changing our physiological state.
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jtsullivan

4 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2008 :  1:16:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I posted this theory above but this is a new version, heavily edited to be more consistant in terminology.

Hypnotism and the Dream Observer - James T Sullivan

I have had a theory of hypnotism for many years. The explanation is overly structured for the purpose of analysis. It does explain things I knew about hypnotism and it has explained or predicted other things additional, unplanned outputs. When I was first taught about hypnotism by a teacher/hypnotist, he described the behavior of people responding to experimenters and stage hypnotists, I had the shock of immediate recognition. When I have seen people hypnotized and read of many examples I was struck by what a willing dupe they are and the similarity to the dreamer. They are compelled to muddle through a proposed or implied scenario and they ignore an audience that may be laughing at them sometimes mockingly not supportively. The relationship to the hypnotists seems to be dominantly important.

People vary by how much they remember in their dreams. I remember everything, including all the moments of critical questions that are then suppressed. But I remember the continuing puzzlement as my critical judgment is submerged (as it must be for the dream to work) and I am forced to accept ridiculous explanations that would never pass muster when I am awake. I recognized this dupe as the same dupe the hypnotic subject in hypnotism. I then had to work out the permutations of the key components in the Usual State of Consciousness (USC), Dreaming and Hypnosis. These factors necessitated a view of dreaming consistent with these parameters. The emergent view of dreaming concurs with my experience and the writings of others on dream experiences.

Here are the three parameters used for analysis in the USC, dreaming and hypnotism:
1. The physiological state (awake or asleep). The USC and Hypnotism are physiologically awake and dreaming occurs while we are physiologically asleep.
2. The experienced sense of I or type of consciousness. - This is the subjective sense of our span of control and our self reflective experience of our identity. When we dream, we do not control the monster chasing us it is a not-I element along with many other not-I elements. The entire dream world (other than our perception of the Dream Observer or dream -I) that we are submerged in is not-I. The mood, the timeframe, the theme, external events, surprises the dream-I interacts with many other entities. Those other entities dream people interact with each other as I watch. The entities are all generated and designed by a not-I element! This is utterly spectacular and should not be swept under the rug because it happens every night. By this definition the dream state not-I elements have to be separated to define the dream sense of I. What is left is the dream sense of I. I cal the dream sense of I the Dream Observer as do others. I call the not-I element the Dream Director.
3. Control Element. I am not talking about a light switch on/off mechanism but a relative shift in priority and dominance. When I am the dreaming, I have less control and access to critical judgment. Another center of control has shifted to a higher level of dominance compared to the USC.

Compared to the dream state, in the USC I have a relatively much higher level access to critical judgement and I have the choice to persist in using it. This control element is intrinsic to the USC, so lets call the USC control element "I-control".

When I am awake I have a more realistic sense of my span of control. It is basically my physical body and my waking mental functions and choice of concentration and access. When I dream I have a similar sense of "I", but it is definitely not the same. This is very clear to me because I dream vividly and remember my dreams and all my feelings at that time. I remember moments of questioning absurd situations, but; my critical judgement is not available to me, unless the context of the dream demands it. In fact it is actively suppressed by a not-I element. This effect is spectacular, such as when you dream your home 15 miles from the ocean is now oceanfront. I am forced to confabulate lies and false memories to support the theme. The Dream Observer as sense of self continues to tune out external stimuli just as the non-dreaming sleeper does but turns to the internal dream world generated by the not-I element.

I call the normal dream consciousness (sense of I) the Dream Observer (DO). The Dream Observer, as I have so far described it, is wholly passive, but; it is really a participant like an overwhelmed improvisational actor swept along by external direction, setting and expectation but still a partner in determining the story line. For this reason I include in the Dream Observer the concept of this dominated but participating improv-actor and a contributor to the story. Dominated but with a second level of inhibition stops. Some most dreams have a media form of stream of consciousness and others have a more pointed message and/or impressive insight and/or a story.

By analogy to the USC where I can divide the world into I and Not-I; we can divide the dream world into I and Not-I. The not-I in dreams is distinct from the unifying/coordinating principle inherent in our sense of self and our sense of our immediate sphere of control. Not physically but by perception and control. What is the Not-I? The not-I determines that we have a nightmare when I do not want to. It creates other people entities and monsters in our dreams that are not-I. Why am I dreaming about my basement that is changed in incongruous ways. Why have I gone back in time? Where did the theme, feeling and mood come from? Why do I agree to false memories? What compels me to go down the basement when there is a foreboding sense and I don't want to. It tweaks the story line by turning the stairs into various fun house stairs when we are fleeing the monsters and I do not want this to happen. To me, all of this is clearly not-I and a significant, other center of control. What is the more dominant control element in dreaming? I call this dream control element the Dream Director. This view of dreaming a swing in control element is not absolute but relatively more to the Dream Director. I am only taking about the default when we add up all the not-I. I am not saying that the Dream Director is another person with all the functions of a person, but; there is some coordination especially in a message dream as opposed to a stream-of-consciousness dream.

In dreaming there is a shift in the control element to the "Dream Director" and it is the relative higher control element in the dream state. Relatively, the degree of this control, is not the same as in the USC. In the USC it is probably the hidden observer that can connect with past associations and emotional triggers - rhe instinct that may give us a tap on the shoulder. It will feed inputs into the next nights dreaming after sifting through the remains of the day and assigning its own importance. Associations are deepened according to the Dream Directors priorities and this is a survival trait. See my write up on Why We Dream attached.

Where does coercive hypnotism come from? There is an economy in evolution that does not develop extra body part or extra behavior. I am not talking about a person referred to as being "hypnotized as they read a book". Nor am I denying these partial states. I am talking about those instances of a dominating state in which, for instance, a stage hypnotist (or experimenter) can tell a person that mathematics is funny and a person that is usually too inhibited and has no acting ability will play the role with conviction. More significantly they will ignore derisive laughter of everyone else in the audience. The hypnotic subject ignores the significance of a large audience laughing at him as directed. He overcomes previous patterns of sensitivity and inhibition. He is compelled to go along unless a lower level of inhibition is triggered or he finds a way to resist such as sleeping, coming out or abreacting. This, to me, is a distinct state from the Usual State of Consciousness. A completely honest and sober person who is directed by the hypnotist, or knowledge of what is expected, will confabulate a story of satanic abuse (so convincingly that the FBI investigated for all the murdered sacrificed babies /other evidence/participants and nothing came of the investigation) or past lives or alien abduction. These effects are spectacular and needs to be explained. The expectation, hint or leads from the hypnotist are accepted as part of the direction as well as the subjects cultural information about hypnotism.

My theory is simply this: The hypnotized person, without changing physiological state, gives up their usual state of consciousness sense of self - I - to the Dream Observer sense of self and allows the control element to shift from I-control to the control element of the hypnotist acting in similar role to the Dream Director. One obvious induction method is relaxation and related techniques that "bore" the left brain into giving up control just as we do every night! As we fall asleep, before we go into a later prolonged dream state, we can fall into immediate reverie that is dream-like. I do not have an explanation for other induction methods but they must result in the giving up of left brain control element, "I", of the USC. In dreaming we switch control to the right brain control function of the Dream Director. That is why its unique messages are often in the visual form of a verbal pun. The right brain is normally verbally challenged when it is driving the point.

Here are the permutations:
State ------ Physiolog.State ----- Sense of I ----- Dominant Control element
USC -----------Awake ----------------- I ----------- I-control
Dreaming ----- Asleep ------------Dream Observer ---- Dream Director
Hypnosis ------ Awake -----------Dream Observer ----- Hypnotist as DD
-Other outputs not anticipated before I built this combination table-
Lucid Dreaming --Asleep --------------- I ----------- I-control
Corridor Dream --Asleep ---------- Dream Observer ---- DD not active
Trans. Med ---- Awake ----------- Dream Observer ---- Prior Intention
Fugue --------- Awake ----------- Dream Observer ---- Dream Director

This theory also explains why honest persons who are hypnotized will tell convincing stories of satanic abuse, past lives or alien abduction wholly according to the specialty of the hypnotist. The same type of thing happens every night. The dream observer is compelled to go along with the theme and direction. It explains the dangers of false memories. I have supported dream absurdities with false memories many times and this is a lingering effect when I am waking.

Note the other outputs that I did not anticipate when I related the three elements to Dreaming, USC and Hypnosis they emerged and helped to give me the feeling that this theory clicks. They also reinforce the possibility of the recombination of these functional elements that happens in hypnosis in combinations beyond USC and Dreaming.

If we become Lucid in our dream state we shift from the passive, submissive Dream Observer to a state approaching I-control. When we are lucid, we can change the not-I elements the mood, the entire dream world. We can choose to continue to interact with other dream entities (our dream people created by the not-I mental function) or choose to interact differently or dismiss them and our surroundings or change our surroundings. The Dream Director as control element shifts down inversely as our I-control increases. I have experienced this many times as do thousands of others.

Dreaming and hypnotism share a shift in access to critical judgment, inhibition suppressed to a lower level, amnesia, false memories, resistance, lucidity, ability to tune out external stimulus (but hypnotism is not physiological sleep). Why do honest people lie both when they are dreaming and when they are hypnotized? This is why the the hypnotized person is the worst experimental subject imaginable. The hypnotized subject will remember a valid reality better than in the USC but if there is no reality matching expectation then the hypnotized subject or dreamer will confabulate a false memory.

Deconstructionist point out that there are many partial effects and shared elements. This is true. Why does the sharing and mixing of mental functions in other states invalidate hypnotism as a separate state? Partial hypnotism effects or long term effects from therapists (another route to the same transaction?) does not invalidate hypnotism any more than all the partial or shared effects of sleep in rest, momentary reverie etc. invalidate the state of sleep. If we insisted that we address sleep as all or nothing (it can be deconstructed) and we addressed partial effects such a momentary reverie, automatic driving a car to establish a continuum then we could deny the state of sleep with as much logic as deconstructionist use to deny hypnotism as a distinct state. Both have partial elements that may be present in continuums and present in various combinations and degrees.

Let me put it more positively. There are certain states that have been ratified by behavioral evolution: the usual state of consciousness - Awake, Dreaming. There are other states that are combinations of behavioral functions. Lucid dreaming, Fugue and sleep walking are recombination of behavioral functions that seem to be in the wrong physiological state and are probably not ratified to support survival by evolution. Hypnotism is another recombination but I do not know if hypnotism is ratified.



Consider the symmetry and recombination in the process of becoming a lucid dreamer compared to my suggestion about hypnosis.

In changing from dreaming to Lucid Dreaming we shift our sense of self - consciousness from the dominated Dream Observer to the I of the Usual State of Consciousness and the control element from the Dream Director to I-control while not changing our physiological state.

In changing from the USC - awake to Hypnotism we shift our sense of self from the I of the Usual State of Consciousness from the normal I to the Dream Observer and the control element from I-control to the the hypnotist as Dream Director while not changing our physiological state.

Can we see these patterns? These shifts and Fugue and Sleep walking and Transcendental Mediation show that such recombinations exist usual or unusual, ratified or emergent.
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